Transcribed by: Cambria Adu

Zoe: Welcome to another episode of Square today. I’m here with Bethany and London and we are talking about sex work before we get started. 

Bethany and London: Sexy!

Zoe:I just wanna go. definitions in some disclaimers of what is sex work and what is not suck by definition is the exchange of sexual services performances or products for material compensation elation, but I want to make it very clear. Do not take my word if you are, a person only refers to voluntary consensual, sexual transactions, refers to human trafficking, other coworkers or non-consensual or I mean anything of that nature..

Everyone : *laughs*

Zoe:…so it Has to take place between two consenting adults of legal age. I will say that legal age difference between state so look up your own state laws to figure out what exactly that legal age is I will say, I think you should be over the age of 18 but you Gotta do what you Gotta do we’ll get it to that later, so just make sure you are of age to give consent and methods of coercion other than payment so of consent consent has to be there in relation to you know all of sex work obviously the payment but again if you gotta do what you Gotta, do you Gotta do what you Gotta do again don’t take that the wrong way

Bethany: mixed feelings on sex, work people exchange his money for labor you know I don’t know if it’s just as much as like the desperation, the people are driven to for money there’s a lot of jobs that are desperation driven to buy you know literally all of them

Zoe: literally very job within capitalism 

Bethany: Actually, like does anyone want to go to work?

Everyone: *laughs*

Zoe: oh wow

Bethany: no no it’s just the thought about getting up for work

London: yea, I’m still into capitalism so don’t try to trick me Bethany

Bethany: no no you can like the work they do.

Now you know like that’s OK you can still enjoy your co-workers' shit.

Zoe: yay

Bethany: I just don’t think people should get pushed to do shit you should be able to pick jobs because you like to work is fine it’s cool 

London: it’s all along the same as Bethany. as it’s consensual in the kind of manipulated in a way and so that’s what it’s sometimes anything so specific things either exactly

Bethany: it’s like the complaints that you make about sex work So if you support capitalism, you do you. you’re having fun

Zoe: Yeah, like it didn’t even hold back this time I feel like if you know me, you know that I am very very very absolutely die hard work and he thinks the only way he can be better be safe for BT criminalize even is if we all have kind of this radical Being said, I mean I think we’re getting better at that I will say the one major concern that I have and it definitely like echoes everything that YouTube said but also something that I think a lot about it only fans and like the kind of push to get into sex work, so young and a lot of people I think Movies you find this person who has copious amounts of money you send them photos you don’t ever have to interact with them that’s it it’s a transaction and it’s done similar to a job similar to a client facing job. These are relationships that you have to keep up with people you know, and again when you have that kind of money difference between two people and of course you can read all of the stories of how to make bacon and some dude but you know in the most Part it’s like you’re like you’re going into a situation where that person could potentially deeply deeply deeply harm you and so I think having the safety precaution, education and again kind of like that conversation around it is so important and I think we lack a lot of that conversation, and a lot of that conversation even gets to shut down I think People who are immediately jump into it or it’s kind of a thing but I definitely don’t think it should be considered that on a broader scale that is very harsh and hard to like I don’t know like it’s hard to work around it I guess but I think I like it a lot give many thoughts to this because it’s at a point now where there’s not as much safety as there once was only fans like we know that these sites are not helpful to the vast majority of sex workers think of the fastest nuclear that you know the whole thing the whole cover was to decrease you know child pornography and I think you know obviously that is something that we need to deal with, but it ended up severely hurt is the reason that in which people share information on potentially dangerous client information on what to do what not to do how to get started even lack of resource sharing that I think has been pulled within the last few years as you know it and you know kind of make it something that they were enjoy doing

Bethany: They need to ban children from these sites. that actually did more to turn in criminals in these areas that were being trafficked. 

Zoe: Yeah, you can’t report someone you know if you were in a situation where you were meeting up with a client. Client said nothing happens again before he moves but because then it’s gonna be. What are you doing? Why are you there, are you fine and you are you’re on your own and probably behind bars you know I just I think there needs to be that discussion and also legalization of everything so that we can have these conversations and like even though like for that and particularly doesn’t work doesn’t work at all in particular

Bethany: I just think of like was that consensual no it was not at all but like why the fuck was she on trial and we saw that happened and obviously that case made headlines feel like there’s so many other people that never got a chance to come forward, and never got a chance to be saved. Never got a chance to even be alive for misogyny in America to because signs to go against the female partying in a gram presses legally when they wrote it, they thought of it in like man and woman so I apologize but that’s the way now is a man attacks you and he is bigger than you and you pull a knife on him. You go to jail, because that was excessive use of foreskin have a weapon why did you it happens were women will get attacked, and if they defend themselves in any way, that’s not with brute force, it is considered like excessive force even just like the status of these men too and so you know it’s men with money it’s men with power it’s been with connections oh, and let’s not act like black men would get away with the same thing because they would not the whole Reyes issue as well. 

Zoe:Get there too late don’t get us wrong but so many laws are written specifically yet so that way you can’t defend yourself you’re a prostitute and someone roughs you up it’s like OK you can’t go to the car because you’ll get arrested for prostitution and he can’t defend yourself, so what are you supposed to do?

Bethany: Yeah exactly

Zoe: I think prostitution was a really interesting thing for me until I started working and he was even kind of my final years of working as a sexual abuse advocate, and I was able to do a little bit of like anti-prostitution work and it was really interesting because half of the people that are very anti-prostitution are very like anti-porn anti-anything the only way to get past. All of this is to get rid of it. All all of it Has to go away people who look at Foster‘s house done and think that was the best thing that has ever happened and looked at you know the fact that Tumblr Vandal porn and think that was a gradesss thing I think the other thing to without that I learned a lot of is that a lot of times in particular with prostitution cases a lot of time is a Johnson buyers like the people are buying text. A lot of reasons they don’t get caught is because more often than not. They are heads of communities, they're always Whiteman they’re not always right, but like most white men, they’re always people of status. They are always people with money. They’re always people with beautiful family as you know like great connections, beautiful houses, and I think you know, we don’t want it to get out that our mirror or our community official art Sheriff was some scumbag that was engaging in prostitution but like those are nine times out of 10 the people who are buying sex and I think that’s really interesting and I wish that we had more discourse about that. 

Bethany” Yea I totally agree

There’s a really good film that I watch that was actually was set in Island particular just because we have with IA running through the middle of the state it’s really a hotspot for trafficking let’s let’s say that instead there’s one hotel in particular that like it’s known but if you were being trafficked like the state, you’ll probably stop there. It’s so fucked up anything there’s a lot of learning that needs to be happening with that because prostitution nine times out of 10. It’s not just like dirty grimy whatever it’s like very well dressed people who are well taken care of in terms of like their physical appearance because you have to match these men who are like I said in higher positions of power I’m in higher statuses, you know include we need to have more conversations about that we need to engage more to be more of a sex word and solicit customers from a public place.

London: Alright so  the best street prostitution is for customers from a public place. This is the most popular way that you probably see. You are talking about sex workers. 

Bethany:This is what you’re thinking of typically there can be because people like it’s really popular with pants. 

London:Are we there if it’s virtual theoretically in someone’s standing in a certain way, which is so fucking terrible. 

Bethany: Then probably they could be engaged is wild like big as people think it is and also in as labeled as street prostitution is not a form and removes street prostitution 

Zoe: no because I feel like it’s important to talk about it you can’t talk about sex work without talking about the complications of it

Bethany: True but I don’t think prostitution is necessarily like the most up-to-date term that we could probably have with that because I think when people hear prostitution changing it's common to see it in a certain way. Also, you can support something and point out perfect escorts bougie shit officially.

Zoe: The escorts do not have sex with clients they are someone you pay to take on a date with you and some old rich CEO, who can’t really swing any girls look like a triple prune a girl to go with me and you can even get them laying educated keep up with conversations educated like however lots of them do the Nookie anyway very popular in Hollywood especially people who him that I love if you don’t know what a blade item is it basically just like when people who like her they can’t like say who it is that fucking Julia Fox, and it all started like yachts were rich, managers and yacht girls and a lot of times they don’t fuck on the yacht maybe afterwards but like Julia Fox basically stood up and was like I’ll be with this person

London: yes I agree and also Necessarily it's going to chatter bait job and there are along with it in a remember when you’re watching anyone else sing people who post about sex probably fail weird kinks 

Bethany: I could probably do OK like I’m chunky. 

Everyone: Yea!

Zoe; Yeah yeah go to my friends. Made it into the top 1%,  but it’s not always exactly what Kim is. Actually it's my own fancy version for me. It’s a video performer on the Internet and Kim broadcast a WebCam model, stripping masturbation or what are they really cool things that I think about with WebCam in it out more recently broader scale of things like people aren’t necessarily going on the chatter bait, 

Betany: I think one of the cool things about no no nobody’s coming on my shit like I can watch porn and not remove it from my history and I feel like if someone was to look at my phone and see my porn, it's like.. Why were you even looking at my history, like its my phone

Zoe:Yea

London: Hey Zoe, when are you going to start your only fans?

Everyone: laughs

Zoe: let’s discuss this later London *laugh*

Bethany: I guess one that I feel like in my head feels the most Jobbie and probably eat a little snack at the table you know like if you go to the say coworker OK Johnny how’s it going pounding and then they go crazy to normal like OK Johnny have a good day is for me please 

Zoe: yeah I love watching documentaries of people who particular stop and get a different angle for the guys because when you’re a girl it’s easy to say you can orgasm how do you get off with all those cameras Vaginas speakable if you got like funk to be shoot now I don’t think it though like a movie prop like sperm underneath pretty well do you think this is like porn prop Masters? 

Bethany: I wanted to work for Hollywood and here I am a come on people, me and Shoe And I don’t want to watch homemade porn have their own channels and it’s like him to record but did you also what was going to be done with the video every person concert time and two so ethically is very scary yeah I like those questions like I’m not saying they’re all unethical And verify you don’t have to be verified to post a video on porn hub. 

Zoe: yea so let’s move on to phone sex. That is just a vocal conversation between two people. people using a phone and sexual hundred vaginas and like a phone number

Bethany:  I don’t have a dick but if I did have one ready never mind I want to apologize to the voice actress who did the one 800 vaginas intro sorry man I just I heard we have exotic dancing finesse got money out of those motherfuckers but cute cause I feel like they have lies. People chose to write. 

Zoe: I swear I’ve heard of it more like burlesque shows or more now they’re a little bit technically there’s no body part shown it’s all a tease and so like you, a peep show you get a singular coin you put it into the slot. You go behind the curtain and no nipples, no external reproductive organs are shown pasties yeah so.

Bethany: I would actually like that. To pay for someone to pee

Zoe: I’ve actually been to one I am so I’ve been on a good show. My husband and I went and saw one in Las Vegas. There is a message. I loved that queer when I was in college and I got on stage once. It was fun but it wasn't like dancing. It was like to learn a fucking dance and I was like I was like online fucked up on stage is the best time of my life.

Bethany: My husband had to give a damn he had to do a dance but he throws he just looked at the guy just like he got so embarrassed to do they don’t be pulling up on stage and you hope that you know so my husband did not know it was going to happen, and then he was told to give a random lady in the audience, a husband king dance competition. 

Zoe: The guy who won against him, was kind of weird about it and he was nice because the other guy ended up being a creep about it on the street like he was just a nice young man, pursuing feelings for them, lesbian strip clubs..

Bethany I want to take me and we work out in lady club twice and both times I ended up like talking to the stripper but like school like the first time she was talking about like work not about like in a sexy way either at work I didn’t get her real name the other one and she told me a real name I don’t know if it was real real name, but they told me it was their real name and they were talking to me about the classes they were taking at the at the UC they were at experiences I’ve only been to a strip club with my mom. 

London: We would go between the gay bar in the strip club forget about like how real people and so like personable facts I think that you can get from that where it’s like you know you can actually have a chat with people and I think that’s neat rhythm and being seductive like and lazy Bility another thing I did as I am I made of middle of her thing and I was like but the money is dirty and I don’t know why but she didn’t mind it

Zoe: I think the idea of throwing mo eh ar stripper is disrespectful and dirty because in other societies, it is considered rude And the money is dirty

Bethany: yea but the idea of finding the person that is collecting the tips is also another problem n because imagine having to get up and look for the person with the bowl for the tips. It will be a headache as you’re trying to enjoy the strippers.

Everyone; yea

Zoe: People who’ve been into it before I could see being into being a stripper before some of the other ones I can see more people being like you. I love you being like yeah I love being a sugar baby I feel like my sugar babies like that again, same thing would like a complaint Video like it looks very easy in the movies but it’s like it’s work. It is work you have to sell yourself in that regard history Zacks, my own personal history lesson is that sex work is shit on, despite being literally the oldest profession that has ever existed. If there is humanity there is the sale of sex 

Bethany: They say, but like I’m poor, like the first sweet farmer in the world like hey I was the first profession thank you I mean food is definitely a thing if there are people that are sex if there is sex, there is the sale of sex you know is there an actual fact probably not the lake wasn’t a thing and likely can you go back to thousands of years and find evidence of sex workers?

Zoe: Yes, even if it wasn’t necessarily even like a big transaction of money necessarily there was usually a transaction of like something like goods or services in Greece as well as Japan that happened also within the United States it is only within the last like decades honestly regulated in even really seen explicit laws preventing US thing that is a very colonist seen similar things happened in Britain and France from another colonizers faces think there’s also a lot of organization, organizing in particular that has been going on around us so like we’re seeing kind of the growth of different types of sex 

Bethany: And hopes to a certain extent, but again like we’re losing some of our least of that people, laws and exist, and the only way to really have fear, honest, open safe conversations to make it completely legal and you know kind of remove the weird regulations that we have around that in terms of like who can do it when people forget that legal Position means regulation to exactly who is regulation I think a lot of people may think of legalization they just assume like that’s not true rate not at all because actually things that are legalized are often more regulated. 

Zoe:Deep hatred for a woman I think plays a big role, obviously plays a very large role into a lot of these laws despite the fact that like many many many many people engage in sexual activity, many many many people in need and watching porn or an in consuming some form of Sex or indirect we have a really interesting relationship and the fact of like we are so misogynistic that we just can’t deal with the legality of anything while pornography is legally in United States prostitution is illegal United States shout out to Nevada doing something in particular, the world, pornography, prostitution or legal I mean, even some countries were sex toys are legal Dubai is like a perfect example of this is like we think that it’s very progressive and it is an a Business sign but like if you think you’re gonna bring a dildo into Dubai you’re fully fucked up you will be stopped in customs in particular I think a lot of Middle Eastern countries are region where it’s a little bit more controlled. Obviously, there’s limited access to print. there’s also the understanding that like sex work probably still exist. Just because I think it is deeply illegal doesn’t mean that it doesn’t Need to be made also in Thailand, Japan, Germany, Australia, Mexico, Canada, and there are those that continue in Canada. Conveniently enough the government will give you a stipend to pay a sex worker  like if you are someone with disabilities, or as a healthcare situation, than anything else like in situation like this place is where being a prostitute, it’s like a government job 

Bethany: OK practically so like if you get pregnant as a prostitute is it like a Workman's Comp. situation And paperwork with your employer for that you see, probably not in the United States or not I think half of being a sex worker is like never having a condom because those are the men that feels oh that’s so funny you said they will never ever ever do it without a condom through too many like I had a former Prostitute friend when she said she didn’t even give blow jobs without condoms don’t be silly rabbit Willy guys I don’t know if anyone in the audience who knows us 

London:Yea, good for her!

Bethany: Agree!

Zoe: I’m curious about that now I wanted to mention something while we were still in history wait what are you gotta say about history so like it’s really a disservice to discuss sex work at all seeing how it affects trans people and how much do I end with Really tightly and I know we talk about how it affects all women but I think when you talk about the violence against trans women, I don’t really know if I had something long and well thought out to say about it but I felt like we were really like ignoring a major topic here as well as like how many trans people do sex work simply because I don’t wanna say it like I know it’s kind of talking bad about sex work a little bit you read articles about trans people who can’t get jobs doing anything else because they’re trans in their communities so they’re like all people will hire don’t wanna talk about like it as a last resort anymore but like I don’t even think it’s like talking bad about sex work I think it’s more of a dude like we cannot see people without seeing like sexual qualities within them you know what I mean I like the value of that and then the whole idea of traps to comes from sex workers it’s like so when some influential guy got caught with a transgender sex worker I didn’t know that they were trans.

Bethany: I thought they were probably some car offensive thing that I don’t want to repeat, but you know like from, but that was like my first introduction the whole idea of calling transgender people traps was influential people trying to mask the fact that they were attracted to transgender people the seventh most search category on porn hub was trans and transgender. It’s the 10th most watched by male visitors so like as much is this is being viewed and as much as we are seeing the sexuality of trans people in particular being engaged by the masses, we just are not People and legislature honestly like all of the legislature around work is just very if you were not a white rich successful man like you’re not shit because that’s like OK so pretty much the rundown is that there’s definitely risks associated with being a sex worker you probably know them they’re probably the first things I come in your mind for the most part Areas kind of psychological physical sexual control. Yes truly it really puts you in a place to potentially be taken advantage of sex workers rights come with the regulations of legalization so they would include things like certain healthcare, protections certain resources for sex workers resources for people who want to continue to be also there people who don’t want to be, it’s not whole life job be honest how many like 80 year old sex workers do you now there’s like a time limit on it for most people so it would really job so sex work with literally just become a transaction in like basic sales they wouldn’t have to worry about being taken advantage of because the government would actually be on their side theoretically Through improved eight.

Zoe: I feel like we only just kind of scratched the surface of it all. I think there’s really a lot more we can be doing and there’s a lot more goals that I feel are important. It is very important. I do feel like there’s a lot more protections that might be of more value that also needs to be equal to work and it’s really time to treat it. That way we are far overdue for some actual laws and again you know like earlier legalization is regularization and so I think if we have the legalization, we are able to regulate how things happen what goes down protections for people who are engaging in this work you know if that is something that you are into this is something that you think that you would like to get into this line of work in particular read some stories of people make sure that this is actually a place that you would like to be in is the same thing for Aby Read some reviews breeds of dogs people in the industry if you can because it’s not for everyone I think you have to be a very particular person to be in this work because it is hard grueling work and it is not rewarding you no one and lots of cases I can’t be don’t get me wrong, but there’s a lot of other things that are not really in popular discourse in a long does lines at the beginning I said it wasn’t because I said that I’m pro consensual as possible legal American get their sex work, legalize it all of it because, like you guys said, repeating legalization is regulation, and there are ways that I can be done And be better for people in more education I think a really big deal talked about was there is a lack of resources difficult to be a safe could be so yeah. Okay I think that’s all that we have time for today and stay tuned for our next episode will do in the future on porn.

Bethany: I have Bones yeah it’s not in our roster yet but it will be so keep listening 

Zoe: if you have any thoughts, if you have any opinions, if you want to share some input, I’d love to see it we all love to see it  keep listening keep paying attention, keep reading and keep educating in particular keep advocating and keep doing what you’re doing and will see you next time 

London: stay sexy